THE CAREER GLOW-UP | OVERCOMING PEOPLE-PLEASING IN TOXIC WORK ENVIRONMENTS WITH JENNIFER BRICK

Are you dealing with a toxic work environment? Do you ever feel like your people-pleasing tendencies are sabotaging your career? If so, you're totally not alone. That’s why in this week's episode of The Femme Cast, I've got the amazing Jennifer Brick with me. 

Jennifer Brick is your new Career Bestie. She helps people get out of and over toxic jobs and take back control of their careers. And today we are going to tackle people pleasing in the work place and how to handle a toxic work environment. 

This episode is for you if: 

• You're navigating a toxic work environment and feeling the weight of office drama on your shoulders.
• You find yourself constantly saying yes to others at the expense of your own well-being, struggling to break free from the cycle of people-pleasing.
• You're craving a career glow-up and yearning to reclaim control of your professional journey with a healthy dose of radical self-love and empowerment.

We're diving deep into all the messy stuff—office drama, the constant need to please everyone, you name it. Jennifer and I are here to dish out some real talk on how our self-worth plays a massive role in our professional lives and why setting those boundaries is non-negotiable.

Let’s do this. 

Check out the Get Over Your Toxic Job Guidebook: https://capdeca.teachable.com/p/toxic-job-recovery-guidebook 

Purchase the Career Glow Up book on Amazon:
https://a.co/d/2LdFXJt

Check out Jennifer's website for links to all her socials and resources:
https://www.capdecasolutions.com

Are you ready to create a massive uplevel in your life and relationships? If so, use the link below to book your 90-minute Uplevel + Flow Intensive. This is a powerful 90-minute session where we go deep to energetically shift one relationship pattern you are ready to break free from, so you can magnetize more loving and supportive relationships without the chase...just flow!
https://thefemmecast.com/uplevel-and-flow-intensive

Are you ready to begin your heart healing journey today and manifest the love that you desire? If so, use the link below to register for my Uplevel + Flow Meditation Series . A 3 part series designed to help you heal from heartbreak and manifest love you've always wanted, but never thought you would find.
https://thefemmecast.ck.page/meditations

Are you ready to rewrite your love story + glow from the inside out as you become a magnet for the love you've always known you deserved? If so, use the link below to register for my 21 Day Radical Self-Love Challenge.
https://thefemmecast.ck.page/21daychallenge

Transcript

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 0:32

Hey you guys, what is up and welcome back to the show. We are back with another episode that is gonna shake things up for you and this time, hopefully, it will be in your career. I have got the amazing Jennifer Brick on the show today. Jennifer is your new career bestie. She helps people get out of and over their toxic jobs and take back control of their careers. After scaling her tech career to the executive level, she founded her company, capdeca Solutions LLC in 2019, which, by the way, I'm a huge fan of and since then she's gone on to grow an award-winning YouTube channel, been featured in Fast Company, business Insider, newsweek and many, many more.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 1:12

And today me and her are going to be tackling a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts the career glow up, overcoming people pleasing and toxic work environments. This episode is totally for you If you're navigating a toxic work environment and feeling the weight of office trauma on your shoulders and we all know what that feels like. If you find yourself constantly saying yes to others at the expense of your own well-being, struggling to break free from the people-pleasing cycle, or if you're craving a career glow-up and you're yearning to reclaim control of your professional journey with a healthy dose of radical self-love and empowerment. We're diving deep into all the messy stuff, the office drama, the constant need to please everyone you name it. We're covering it.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 1:55

Jennifer and I are here to dish out some real talk on how our self-worth plays a massive role in our professional lives and why setting those boundaries is a non-negotiable so if you've ever found yourself drowning in workplace toxicity or stuck in a never-ending people-pleasing cycle, this episode is totally for you cycle, this episode is totally for you. Jennifer Brick, welcome to the show. It is such an honor to finally have you here. I bow to your presence Welcome.

JENNIFER BRICK: 2:25

I am so excited to finally be here. Thank you for having me on.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 2:30

Oh, thank you for being here. This is great. I think you know. I say you know I wanted to have you on the show for a long time, but we were talking about this, you know, leading into the episode. I do believe things happen at the perfect time and I think you know, when I saw your post the other day, it really triggered me and I'm like this has to happen now, right. So the post was something along the lines of are you being scapegoated at work? And you gave a story about how scapegoating shows up in the workplace and I thought, oh my God, this is literally, literally my story, and I think this is something that so many people please or struggle with. So do you want to talk to us a little bit about?

JENNIFER BRICK: 3:10

that? Yeah, absolutely no, and I think scapegoating at work is so common, but it's something that I don't see being discussed very often. And I think scapegoating at work is so common, but it's something that I don't see being discussed very often, and I think that there is obvious ways where it shows up. I think it's easy to tell if you're being scapegoated at work and you're in that toxic dynamic If you are being blamed for other people's mistakes, even if you were completely not having anything to do with even the project or the initiative or anything like that. But oftentimes it could be so much more subtle than that.

JENNIFER BRICK: 3:41

One of the things that I see really frequently and one of the biggest signs that you are being scapegoated and this is related directly to people-pleasing as well is being unable to accept any praise. How often and I think this is something that women in particular are taught to do as soon as someone gives us recognition, as soon as someone gives us praise as much as that's what we're often seeking on some level at work we start giving it away to everyone else, even people who, if we're honest with ourselves, don't really deserve it. So you know, I like to kind of bash Chad. Chad's not actually bad but you know, poor Chad.

JENNIFER BRICK: 4:23

Chad has a lot of advantages. He gets a lot of esteem, which is questionable because of who he is. But he'll take credit for work and we'll get upset about it. But at the same time, if we so much as have a minor discussion about something, we'll hand credit over to him when he didn't really actually contribute anything. And that's something that we really need to catch ourselves doing and catching ourselves in that dynamic, because until we do so, we're going to be stuck in it.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 4:45

Yeah, oh, my God, I laughed when you said that because I can literally remember so many times that I did that Like so many. And it's like it's funny because I've done and to give everybody like a bit of background how how I you know me and Jen cross paths right Like I, I was going through a career transition. I wanted to move up in my career and I had done so much work on my interpersonal like, on my personal relationships, right and boundary setting and, you know, setting expectations and doing all the things that you're supposed to do in your relationships. What I learned very quickly was all that went out the window when it came to my career. So when I took your course and I can't remember the name of the course, I don't know if you remember the name of it, but it was that was Career Glow Up. Yeah, career Glow Up. I loved that and it's an amazing program and it truly, truly, truly worked for me.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 5:29

I was in a manager, semi-senior manager role when I started it and it was a small startup. So I really I wanted to bring myself up to a CSO position. I wanted to be chief strategy officer. That was where my passions were, that's where my joy was. That's where my excitement was and that's where I was excelling.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 5:50

And so I took your course and, sure enough, within maybe I mean I'd say by the time I started, by the time I was done the course, I was already on track to making my way up and within a year I had made up. I had made myself up to a director role and then acting C-suite because we were we were short leadership team at the time. Unfortunately it wasn't in the right area, but that's okay. I say this to say your program totally worked. My people pleasing totally sabotaged the entire experience. So my question to you is because I do. I see, I saw those behaviors in myself where I was giving credit where people didn't deserve it, or I wasn't able to take the credit for myself, or when I got the promotion that I was finally trying to get for so long, suddenly I felt like I needed to earn it, even though I'd already gotten it.

JENNIFER BRICK: 6:43

Right. No, you're like still trying to get like, you're trying to build up your self-worth still, because it's lagging behind where you actually are. It's so interesting because there is this difference between reality and our self-reality, like our self-perception, and it takes a little bit of time to catch up, but also the dynamics and what we're dealing with and any bad habits, like negative belief systems, that we have as we ascend. They don't go away, they get amplified. They get amplified Right, and there's fewer and fewer people.

JENNIFER BRICK: 7:18

Because when you're in, especially when you reach the C-suite, like how you did, you're not. It's unlikely that you're going to be working and reporting to a CEO who has phenomenal leadership skills, has phenomenal coaching skills, has a ton of time to mentor you and have these conversations to guide you through. When you're in the C-suite, you are largely on your own from a professional development standpoint. It is in your hands, because the rest of the executive team, the board, they don't see their job as to support you anymore in that capacity. They are only supporting you in the business capacity. So it becomes kind of a lonely and isolated place, which is also another element of scapegoating, because you're also, at the end of the day, holding the bag for all of the things, and although the C-suite can be a very collaborative and supportive team, there is still accountability and when you are someone who is willing to hold the bag, take your blame. You can end up holding a lot of it and people will happily hand it over to you because it keeps their position safer.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 8:25

Yeah, literally exactly what happened in the end. Literally exactly what happened, which was crazy, that you hit the nail on the head. Do you think is it a tendency of people pleasers to end up in these toxic work dynamics?

JENNIFER BRICK: 8:41

Is it?

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 8:42

sabotaging their career, do you think?

JENNIFER BRICK: 8:44

People pleasing is a toxic dynamic in itself.

JENNIFER BRICK: 8:47

And it's something that it is somewhat societal because, again, I think especially women are taught to people please Like.

JENNIFER BRICK: 8:55

We are taught to prioritize the comfort of others ahead of our own comfort. We are taught to prioritize others wellness ahead of ourselves, even if you look at kind of, where not all women but many women will experience motherhood at some point. Right, and if you're a mother and you're not sacrificing yourself for your children, you're a bad mother. That is the message that you will receive, even if you're not in the mother role. If you have nieces or nephews, if you're not prioritizing those people, if you have a partner, if you're not putting your partner first and making sure that dinner's ready or ordered, whichever, there's all of these expectations that are put on us. So I think that socially, we are trained to be people pleasers and I think that it has become part of the gendered stereotype that we are assigned, that we are supposed to live up to. So rejecting it isn't just about rejecting a toxic dynamic, it's about rejecting what has been somewhat defined as an element of femininity.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 10:01

Yes, absolutely, because you're so right, like I can remember, like there was situations in this dynamic and in many dynamics, not just this one in particular, but you know there was this there was this big inequality, this big wage gap between the men and the women and I know massive wage gap, and there was this almost underlying perception of it was justified and it was like it made sense and it was almost you were being, you were almost not reprimanded but being made to feel bad for questioning it.

JENNIFER BRICK: 13:06

Yeah, so it's really interesting. So I just did a deep dive video on the wage gap, and the wage gap actually increases as you ascend in your career. So the biggest gap is between male and female executives.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 13:19

It's so true, like massive I was floored.

JENNIFER BRICK: 13:24

Yeah, and some people will talk it up to. Oh well, you know, men are taking the technical, they're taking the sales, like those are just higher compensated. But underneath that we have to ask ourselves why is the work and the areas of business that women are getting into leadership? So a great example is actually in marketing. The new class of CMOs is actually reflecting the gender diversity of the marketing team, because traditionally marketing has been female dominated, headed up mostly by men.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 13:55

That's really interesting.

JENNIFER BRICK: 13:57

More women enter the C-suite as chief marketing officers, but sales and marketing both responsible for new revenue generation in a business both compensated very, very differently. So why would we devalue a crucial business function over another crucial business function? Because if we took away any element of a business that exists, it probably isn't going to function very well, and when we take away a major function like marketing, it is going to fall apart, right. So it's really interesting, Like I think, that there is like this kind of we could fall down a rabbit hole in terms of how women's work is even being valued at the first place, which I think is just an inherent element that needs to be addressed and corrected, because I think, until we have more equity in the workplace and, I think, really just restoring humanity in the workplace and making it an inclusive place where people want to be, as opposed to somewhere that we are just supposed to go to get our paycheck, we are going to be encountering all of these issues.

JENNIFER BRICK: 15:00

I also think that there is this element especially as you rise in your career, there is an expectation that, performatively, you're going to be more masculine, because I'll ask everyone listening right now, so just take a moment and close their eyes and I want you to envision a powerful leader. What do they look like, what do they sound like, what are they wearing, what's their posture, what's their presence, how do you feel around them? And why are they a man? Because I can guarantee 95% of you thought of a man and until we think of ourselves and until we have role models to look up to in those roles, it is going to be difficult. And I think it's really interesting because companies that have diverse leadership teams, and especially women in the C-suite, are more profitable. There's a ton about feminine leadership that is so powerful because, if we're talking about inclusion, empathy, like these traditional feminine traits, they're not often associated with leadership, even though they're associated with good leadership.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 16:19

Yes, I think they're associated. I think, well, people are preaching that it's associated with lead, but no one's actually practicing it. Because I think that, as an ideology, yes, these make for great leaders, but at the end of the day, corporations are making decisions based on the bottom line who's going to bring in more revenue? And they fail to recognize how these skills, these qualities that women bring to the table, actually generate way more revenue. Yeah, absolutely.

JENNIFER BRICK: 16:54

Right, inspired and are really aspirational today, like in 2024. And what you'll see is there's still a lot of people that look up to Steve Jobs. There's a lot of people that look up to Elon Musk. Yeah, you know so, but that's a very.

JENNIFER BRICK: 17:10

If we look at that style of leadership, it is a traditional style of leadership. It is not a emotionally intelligent style of leadership. It is not inclusive. In fact, the type of leadership is exclusionary and sometimes somewhat abusive. There are stories of Steve Jobs going in and yelling at random employees.

JENNIFER BRICK: 17:35

Elon Musk he definitely demands an extreme dedication to work from his employees, which isn't a negative for all people. There's some people that love and thrive off that, but that's not every individual. But if that is the model of success and that, especially in the tech world, gets funded, that's what continues to grow. So how do we actually start to rethink that and I think this is one of the things when it comes to people pleasing and does that help us become more successful or does it hinder us?

JENNIFER BRICK: 18:02

The thing is, it could actually be both, because I think that what underlies people pleasing even though it has this negative element of often sacrificing ourselves and this could be increasingly personally detrimental. It also means that we are consensus builders, we are empathetic, we are seeking feedback, we're looking to improve things and we are looking to optimize the experience for the people that work with and for us as well. So I think, in a certain way, it can be very, very good. In a certain way, it could be very, very bad. And what we want to be intentional about is, when we have this tendency it's not going to go away, like we're not going to live for decades of our lives with this tendency, with it having been socialized, with it being rewarded, with it being like so much societal and internal pressure in order to maintain it. But I think a question that we can ask ourselves is how do I channel it in the most positive and productive way that has a positive impact on me and the people around me?

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 18:59

Love that, I love that, and you always and you spoke to that in your course and you speak to that in all of your content is how can, how can, whatever it is that, whatever gift you bring to the table, whatever characteristic you bring to the table, you're always talking about how to use it best for yourself and for the people that you're working with and for the organization, and I think that is really the winning strategy whenever you're looking to move forward in your career. And so I think that you know if, for women who are out there who are listening to this, if you're in a pattern of you know where you're sabotaging, you feel like you might be sabotaging yourself. Number one you know these are some of the signs that we're talking about, and I do. You do have a book right that you've just did. You just publish it.

JENNIFER BRICK: 19:43

Is it out, so I just released. It's a digital download. It's called Get Over your Toxic Job. I do also have Career Glow Up as a book now as well Career.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 19:49

Glow Up is phenomenal. I strongly encourage everyone to take that.

JENNIFER BRICK: 19:53

Yeah, so Career, glow Up. I did make it into a book that came out last year and you could just buy it on Amazon.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 19:58

Okay, amazing, I love that and so, yeah. So the point that I was trying to make there and I completely got derailed myself is I think that if we can catch ourselves in those moments where we think that we're sabotaging right yeah, how do we bring it back to that? Like, what would your advice be? So you know, you're in a job where you're constantly people pleasing, you're constantly giving, you're not getting anything in return. What do you say to a person who's in that situation?

JENNIFER BRICK: 20:23

So it's hard. So I'll do my best to speak to this generically, because I think there's so many different manifestations.

JENNIFER BRICK: 20:30

Yeah, but okay. So generally, when we look at a tendency, we have to ask ourselves is this something that I'm going to completely be able to shift about myself? So, if we look at people pleasing, there are often values that you don't even want to change, that are associated with people pleasing. Right, like empathy, compassion, kindness. These are things that are involved in people pleasing. These are incredibly good, incredibly powerful things and I think can be assets that leverage for us in our careers. But then we need to look at what's the negative side of it so-called and obviously there is manifestations that, as I mentioned, they are hindering. So we need to get clear on how can this be helpful and how could this be hurtful. Because the more aware we are in terms of the patterns and how they both benefit and limit us, the more we're able to catch ourselves and minimize the ways that hinder than maximize the ways that they're going to help us. And I think that we could bring a lot of curiosity in terms of what are other ways that this could actually serve me right, and I think, when we get into people-pleasing, there's a lot of shame around people pleasing because, again, we always talk about it as though it's this awful thing that we do when really it's often sometimes the best thing that we do. You know, when we're tired but a friend calls us in crisis and we listen to them for an hour when you know we were just wanting to watch Netflix and just tune out for a little bit. That's people pleasing, but that's showing up for a friend and that is an incredible, remarkable thing. So sometimes we are going to go and do things that we don't like, that we wouldn't have necessarily chosen, but we do show up for people in meaningful ways that foster those relationships that make us feel good, make other people feel good. So I think that we kind of had generally put a blanket on it that it's always an awful thing, that we should never, ever do, instead of just saying, okay, but what are things that aren't so bad about it?

JENNIFER BRICK: 22:32

So, bringing in curiosity, and I think we have to challenge the belief systems in terms of like, why am I doing this? And I think and this is something that I do get into in the Get Over your Toxic Job guidebook because with all of the beliefs that do hold us back at work and especially with any toxic dynamics, so if people pleasing has made you the scapegoat and you're just being continually thrown under the bus. You're never actually getting credit for your work. When you do, you're giving it away. You're undermining yourself. You're letting other people are undermining you as well. Now, this is not a dynamic that you are going to thrive in. You're not going to feel good. It's going to hurt your self-confidence, it's going to hurt your self-worth. So this is something that we need to do about.

JENNIFER BRICK: 23:11

So, first of all, we need to understand what the dynamic actually is. Why is that happening and what's the belief system that is under it. So why do I feel like I can't accept any praise? Why do I feel like I have to distribute this? Why am I assuming no one else is getting recognition? And there's always like I would love to be able to like wave a magic wand, tell people exactly why a dynamic is the way that it is. And while I can, psychologically and socially, sociologically, explain an awful lot, a lot of these things are just internal. So it really, instead of like listening to the outside world in terms of what should I do, it is about asking ourselves these questions and observing them and then having the audacity to ask ourselves is this true? Because, just because we believe something doesn't mean that it's true. When we were little kids, we believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Now, how many of us believe in those things now? I'm sorry if you.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 24:12

I should have just put like a make sure you have headphones.

JENNIFER BRICK: 24:14

Sorry if we burst anyone's bubble listening today. Spoiler alert, trigger warning. But you know there is all sorts of things that we believe to be true that aren't necessarily true, right. So it is fair for us to examine things and like sometimes it is just a matter of even saying is this true? Is this actually serving me? Because we do have the ability to get intentional.

JENNIFER BRICK: 24:35

Now, just getting intentional and saying debunking our own beliefs doesn't automatically change them. Again, these are things that are socialized over the course of years and a lot of times, things like scapegoating people, pleasing these are frequent trauma responses. So there can be some big heavy stuff that lies under that that can take years to unpack, and the automatic reactions that your mind and body has may never short circuit in a more like positive way for you or in a more productive way for you. But the more that you start to recognize what is going on in your internal experience again, in your head and in your body, the more you're able to catch yourself, take that moment and then act with intention. So instead of just saying oh my gosh, I'm getting recognition I don't want anyone to be forgotten, because I've always felt forgotten I can catch myself and ask why am I assuming that no one else is getting recognition? Did they really do the work that deserves the recognition? What's the reason why people are acknowledging me and not the others?

JENNIFER BRICK: 25:38

Like, maybe it's because you did 99% of the work Right and so we need to like bring, we need to be mindful in those moments, because when we, when we see the pattern, when we catch ourselves in that pattern, then instead of just reacting and quickly saying, well, chad did this too, and yeah, gertrude did that, we can say, okay, like, could I just take a a moment and, even though maybe it's a little bit uncomfortable, I'm going to say thank you, yeah because I can remember there was a time there was literally I can remember a time where I had I had done something and when the beginning and I was receiving praise on and I, literally I had to stop the praise like mid-sentence and say, but wait, I know, I know, so you know, sent an email.

JENNIFER BRICK: 26:23

This person, like it was like suddenly I had to like recognize everyone's contribution, if it was, if there's the smallest thing, all of a sudden it's the academy awards and you have 30 seconds to name everyone, and don't you dare forget a soul. Right, you're gonna offend someone. But the thing is is that when we do that, and again, it doesn't mean that we never, ever recognize anyone else we don't share credit when it is due and in the appropriate forum.

JENNIFER BRICK: 26:47

But the thing is, if that's how we always respond, what we're doing is we are undermining the perception that that person has of us, because if we are always handing away the credit that we receive and we refuse to hold any of it when it comes time to promotion decisions, when it comes time to performance reviews, that's what they're going to think you didn't do anything. You didn't do that and they're not going to associate your successes with you, which is a problem.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 27:12

It is a huge problem, and then that's where Chad gets promoted before you all the time.

JENNIFER BRICK: 27:17

Well, and then Chad's getting promoted because like he was snatching credit and then you were donating it over to him, right, and but then it also creates it's this, this weird catch 22, because as we're redistributing it, we also feel increasingly neglected, undervalued and unrecognized, because at some point it stops or any attempt we have deflected. So we're never getting validation, we are never getting the esteem and recognition that we do know that we deserve, and sometimes it's because, like that sense of unworthiness, there is sometimes blockers that we don't even really realize that we're getting the praise. We have just reflexively distributed it all away. Oh, 100%.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 27:58

I think there was even a moment where I almost felt in not entitled the title's not the right word. It almost felt like I was just I was. I was doing my part to prevent situations that had previously happened to me where people had taken credit for my work, and I knew how awful that felt. And so it's like I completely swung the pendulum so far in the other direction that if anybody, like I said so much, has sent an email to contribute on a project, suddenly they needed to be recognized for it, because I refuse to put any make anybody feel like that, cause it did feel awful when, when people you know take credit for your work, right and so. But you go to that extreme and it's like but there is an overcorrection, overcorrect, wild, wild overcorrection, right, and that ended. And then that's what ends up happening is, eventually, you're right, like the praise goes away, it all goes away, and then next thing, you know, right.

JENNIFER BRICK: 30:37

Well, you didn't show up, you didn't do the thing, right, right, but, and at the same time and this is something that I've observed with so many people you're probably the first to give away the credit, but then you're also probably the first to take the blame. Yeah, which creates another massive perception issue, because if you're never taking credit for the things that you've done well and the successes that you have established and created, but you're the first one to put your hand up because you took a day to reply on an email, but it was like a six-month project that you only had that one email. You're like well, I could have replied within five minutes at 10 PM at night, and maybe that would have fixed something. Then, all of a sudden, everyone's handing it over to you. So there's this over-account accountability when it comes to taking blame and taking criticism, but then there's an under accountability when it comes to receiving recognition.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 31:27

Yeah, absolutely 100% Okay. One more question I want to ask you. That's not related to the topic that we. It's related to people pleasing in the workplace, but I want your take on this Setting boundaries when it comes to your work-life balance. This was a big time struggle for me in my entire career because every time I felt and I'm good, I'm good with my boundaries, I know where I stand, I know what happiness and fulfillment look like to me, I am crystal clear and I think it's been a journey for me being able to really set boundaries. But even having, you know, done all the work around it, it is still like uncomfortable AF trying to set boundaries at work.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 32:11

I don't know if it's because it's a money connected to money or what, but there is something there about like like I can remember even feeling weirded out that I took a vacation and I did not check in through said vacation. Right, because I was determined I couldn't check in. I was in a. I was, I was pretty remote so I didn't have the best internet connection anyway, but I can remember feeling everybody else called into the calls on their vacation. Everybody else checked into their emails in their vacation. I'm not checking in. This can't be good Like. I remember feeling really anxious about this, and I think it might have been. It might've been looked, I'm not sure. No one said anything, but you could tell people weren't happy about it. You know one of those unsaid things. But what's your take on that?

JENNIFER BRICK: 33:01

Okay, so probably a longer take than you anticipate. So, first of all, what the always on work culture is so new and I feel like it adapted so quickly that nobody even noticed it. Because imagine 20 years ago, when you went on that vacation, you were unreachable. Because 20 years ago, if we go back to the year 2004, we had cell phones but they did not have internet, they did not have email.

JENNIFER BRICK: 33:30

If you wanted to check your email while you were on a trip, you had to go to an internet cafe, buy an hour, log into your email if you even could. Because if you were using a trip, you had to, like, go to an internet cafe, buy an hour, log into your email if you even could, because if you were using Outlook you probably couldn't, you probably couldn't Right. So, like, maybe you gave, like, the number for the hotel in case of emergency and then it was a big deal for them to call you because there's like long distance and you're not going to be reachable and really, unless the building was on fire, no one would call you like and even then Absolutely Like I.

JENNIFER BRICK: 34:03

It's so funny because I I'm a child of the nineties and I remember, like my parents, we my dad took three consecutive weeks off every summer and we went on a camping trip. My mom didn't necessarily take that whole time off, but my dad always did, so I'd go with him and he was at that point where I really remember this. He was in a very senior leadership. He was in an executive role for a crown corporation in Canada and he did have a cell phone and he had an office that was actually close to where we would go camping. Every year he would maybe drop in once, like in that three weeks. People really wouldn't call him. It was actually time off, you know.

JENNIFER BRICK: 34:48

So I think like to a certain degree we need to throw back to that era. But I think the reason why it snuck up on it is if we think about how the technology has advanced. It was probably like 2000, you know, early 2000s. We had palm pilot, so now we had this little like email machine, right? Yeah, little organizer, I forgot the palm, pilot palm really really bringing it back right.

JENNIFER BRICK: 35:11

I forgot about that. Then we had the blackberry so we could do our email. There was instant messaging, text messaging was starting to get more popular and it was a business device. The value prop of BlackBerry was that it was fully encrypted email, so it was safe and secure in your pocket. And then what was it? 2007 or 2008,. The iPhone came out and now we have this emergence of like. We are chronically hooked up to these little tiny dopamine machines Right.

JENNIFER BRICK: 35:42

So not only are these devices designed to hack our dopamine supply, so that we're constantly reaching for them, looking for another hit, looking for another hit, looking for another hit. So true, there's also a certain amount of identity and esteem that is associated with always being on, because, if you think about, you've been out for dinner with friends and there's one friend who just can't get off their phone because they're so important. They need to reply to that email. This is really urgent. My attention is needed. It is a way of asserting esteem, and I don't think that anyone is doing that intentionally.

JENNIFER BRICK: 36:16

I think this is a subconscious positioning. And then also, I think increasingly our identities have become so intertwined with where we work. There's this personal branding and things like that. But we spend so much time and work and it is so much of what we do, especially because we're constantly connected, that those things have kind of coincided to where we feel bad if we're not, you know responding to an email at 11 o'clock at night. At many workplaces we haven't adapted the boundaries and expectations. If there's leaders in the organization, you know dialing in. If your boss is dialing into a meeting when they're on vacation, you feel like you need to dial in when you're on vacation. So I actually think it's a great thing that you did not check in all the time that you were not dialing into the conference call from the beach.

JENNIFER BRICK: 37:08

No, it wasn't happening Because that was sending a good signal to the team that reports to you that that gives others permission to do the same. It's interesting I've talked to a few organizations that they have instituted formal, informal rules that executives are not allowed to send out emails after a certain time. You could still schedule them Does not mean that you're not online, but you cannot obviously be online, and what happens when they do that is they find that the activity after hours actually instantaneously decreases. I think it was actually Slack. I read this story. I'm pretty sure it was.

JENNIFER BRICK: 37:41

A Slack CEO would leave at five o'clock every day because they were like.

JENNIFER BRICK: 37:45

I know that until I'm there, there's people that are going to stay to like so that their boss sees them still working, and they would go to their car to like, take calls and meetings and answer emails, but they would like visibly leave the office because they knew that was what was going to give permission. So I think that there is. You know, I would love to encourage more organizations, and especially leaders and organizations, to set that precedence and set that tone. But I also think that that we have to get into our own digital boundaries because at the same time that you don't reply with the email. If you fell asleep and you didn't reply to that email, is anyone are you going to get in trouble if you're not responding to emails at nine, like eight, nine, 10 o'clock at night? Chances are all that happens is that there wasn't a continued sequence of email, Because when you reply to that email, the person you reply to now feels pressure to reply to your email and it never runs.

JENNIFER BRICK: 38:36

And it goes on and on right. So all that happens is that it gets deferred into work hours. That is going to be for the most part. Now, if you are in an environment with a boss that you know, maybe a little toxic boss that is demanding it, then it's another set of questions. But I think digital boundaries is really important. One thing that I am personally trying really hard to institute this year and I've been generally good but not perfect is I'm just trying to put my phone away at 9pm, Like 9pm, it goes in the charger, I'm not looking at it, I'm not checking it, I am not scrolling and having and, like you know, doing offline activities. So it has obviously a benefit of no blue light before bedtime, so you get better sleep and that's really important for our overall health and wellness.

JENNIFER BRICK: 39:21

But then also, you know it's something that like again the dopamine, it wires your brain, you end up unable to sleep and stuff, so just having it like simply put away.

JENNIFER BRICK: 39:31

Now I'm going to do an offline activity, whether it's reading, I will watch TV. I will admit that it's a different screen, it's not quite so fast and it lacks velocity. But I think, getting clear on our personal boundaries but then also giving ourselves again permission in this world that hasn't been intentional with devices and knowing that these devices have been designed to take our attention away from where we're at and what we're doing and who we're with, to reject that and say I'm going to decide what a healthy relationship with this device is for me and then setting the rules and boundaries that actually help you. Institute it Like put that phone in another room. I've I've heard of people putting it to bad, like I used to. If I need to, all you know, put it into a. When I'm working, I leave it in my purse in another room, just nowhere near me.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 40:20

So I'm not checking on it right. I do that all the time and actually what I've done now, because I'm also a caregiver for my two parents, so I have to always have my phone on in case of an emergency and I know a lot of people are in that situation and they feel like they can never be off if they do that. But there's great apps out there. There's actually one that I use where it actually mutes whichever notifications you tell it to. So basically after a certain time of day every day, like I think it's like 7 or 8 o'clock all my notifications, except for my emergency calls, are off On weekends off.

JENNIFER BRICK: 40:55

Yeah, in general, going into apps like instagram and things like that and deactivating notifications, um, and also, what I use is smartwatch, so calls can still come through to this. So if I do get a call but the phone's away, I don't worry about missing it. So there is like some little bits of workarounds. Yeah, um, but yeah, having you know and I think, like I have, I'm an android user, so we have do not just okay, yeah, so it actually has like a factory default, do not disturb yeah, and you can set your priority contacts.

JENNIFER BRICK: 41:23

Even so, if you can a parent calls or a child calls or partner calls, that will still ring, yeah, but everything else just like everything is quiet vacations yeah, and you can preset that. So you don't, it's not a thought in your mind, you just set it to a certain time. Yep, I totally use that as well, it's amazing.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 41:40

And for iPhone users, there are apps that will do that for you out there as well. I know that because I've used some of them that'll actually block. At one point I was challenging myself to stay off certain apps at certain times. So it actually blocks you from entering the app. I think it was called Focus Help me focus.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 41:55

Anyway, great, great resources out there for people who want to put those boundaries in. But it's really important because, like I always say, you know nothing will take you out of the present moment faster than that intoxicating notification from your phone. You know, whatever it is, because you're right, it does give you this sense of esteem and purpose all of a sudden to be getting notifications, sometimes Right, especially when it's late at night, I think, because now, all of a sudden, you feel like you're important. Yeah, or maybe subconscious, on a subconscious level, you feel that right.

JENNIFER BRICK: 42:25

And no, I mean, we all want to feel important, we all need to feel like what we do is essential. So there's nothing again, there's nothing bad about that at all. That is human nature. It is, but, again, what we want to make sure we're doing. If this is an ongoing thing and that's filling the hole, I'm more curious to look at the hole.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 42:49

What's the hole? What are you filling up with? That that is so powerful and that's true. It's so true Usually when, whenever we're trying to avoid something or, you know, indulge in something, it's because there's something else that we're trying to avoid, and that is the bigger, more powerful question to really be asking ourselves at the end of the day. And that's really, I think, what I mean. It won't, I don't think it'll ever. I think there's a lot of change that needs to happen for us to move away from these patterns completely. Like the whole workplace, I think, needs to be transformed on some level, like you said. But I think that is a healthy first step is really, you know, looking at what it is that you're trying to avoid within yourself, that you think that maybe that praise or that validation that you're getting from the workplace is kind of satisfying right, and that is really the bigger question and the first step to really breaking a lot of these patterns, I think.

JENNIFER BRICK: 43:41

Yeah, absolutely, and the more that you can turn inward, which is really what Career Glow Up and my new guidebook Get Over your Toxic Job. That is always the invitation, because having truly steady and meaningful self-confidence, self-esteem and self-belief does not come from anything that anyone tells you 100%. That is shaky. You become dependent on external validation. A lot of us are trained to rely on external validation.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 44:09

The more that we can validate ourselves, the better we feel in all regards, and then that starts to really have a major impact on our external world, like it did for you 100%, because I don't think, you know, if I was put in that situation where I was, you know, if I was put in that situation five years ago, I would have fallen apart Because, you know, I'd never been let go from a job ever in my life and I don't think I ever would have recovered from that. I mean, obviously there was reasons for it, there was cutbacks and whatnot, and it was all very justified on paper, but at the end of the day it's still a but. You chose to let me go right. It would have literally sent me spiraling, but I think because I was more aware of the voids that I was filling right, I was more aware of what these little dopamine hits were doing for me and what it was drawing my attention to, and I was trying to be as mindful as I could about that throughout the journey.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 45:11

Obviously, we all make mistakes, we all screw up, we all give in to the dopamine. It happens. We all screw up, we all give into the dopamine. It happens, um, but because I was very aware of that part, I think that you know, when I came out of that I didn't have that sinking right. My life is over feeling because I didn't put all my worth into that right.

JENNIFER BRICK: 45:30

Well, and when you know, you know and you strongly believe in what you have to offer someone else, maybe disagreeing with it doesn't phase you. There's a reason why. There's another fun statistic so when we look at layoffs, women traditionally take a pay cut and men take a pay increase with their next job. So men, chad's failing up. We're like, oh my gosh, I hope someone will help. And this is again, and I think it's because, again, chad intrinsically has a lot of validation. But he has been taught that he's worthy. Because we are and I think a lot of women are taught that we need to prove our worth.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 46:07

Yeah, there's that statistic out there and I can't remember where I read this first. It might've been in is it Sheryl Sandberg, her um in? Is it Sheryl Sandberg, her, her, um, her circles documentation where it's like one of the articles in there I think was um. You know, typically men will you know there'll be a posting out and you know there'll be all this criteria and this is the job description and here are all the requirements that you need to hit right In order to apply for this job, a man might have one or two and be like and throw in his resume, Absolutely.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 46:40

If a woman doesn't have 100% of the criteria on that job description, she's like oh, that's it, I'm not qualified, I'm not even going to apply for it.

JENNIFER BRICK: 46:47

Yeah, that was a study, I want to say, from Stanford, but I'm actually not sure if it was a study coming out of Stanford. I feel like so much leadership.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 46:54

It was a while ago, but yeah, I remember that article, I think it was.

JENNIFER BRICK: 46:57

It was from like early two thousands, but yeah that research. It indicated men needed to meet six out of 10 criteria, where women needed to meet a hundred before they would throw in their application.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 47:06

Yeah, yeah. And if you, if there was one bullet point that you didn't, oh right, that's it. I'm not qualified for that, Even though you might've had stellar. Well, well and really a stellar portfolio and so many other extra skills that they didn't even consider to put on that job description.

JENNIFER BRICK: 47:22

Yeah, no, and I I worked in recruiting, I was a hiring manager, I've written job descriptions, I've had input, I've helped make hire hundreds of hiring decisions. The top three are what really matter. That's like the general role. If you meet the top three, you're good, good, you're golden. And even if you don't, you can just whistle where it said happens right, yeah. You give it a go.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 47:43

Who knows, they may be wowed by some other skill you bring to the table, right yeah?

JENNIFER BRICK: 47:47

absolutely, and I think, like so much of it is also again like and this is something that we got into in career glow up is I have this concept of unique awesomeness quotient, which is kind of like unique sales position.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 47:58

That is life-changing. By the way, I apply that to my podcast too.

JENNIFER BRICK: 48:02

No, it literally applies to everything. I just redid the process for myself. I don't joke about this. This is the most foundational element in terms of getting a job, getting a promotion, getting recognition, deciding what projects to doiding if you are starting a business, what business should I start? What product should I offer If you?

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 48:20

are creating content online.

JENNIFER BRICK: 48:21

what content should I create? Because it really is like that is your highest potential path with the least amount of resistance, and the more that you can align that with a need, of an opportunity that you're pursuing or an opportunity that you're trying to create for yourself, like that just makes it like all of the resistance breaks down.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 48:38

then All of it, because now you're literally speaking to exactly what you love to do, can do well, and people want from you. So everything, like all everything is aligned, so it's beautiful and I've literally applied it to so many different. Do you cover that in the in the book as well? It's, it's in career glow up, yeah okay, what was it right?

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 49:00

yeah, uaq, uaq, yeah, I remember that. Oh, my god, that was life-changing okay. Um, I thank you so much for being here. This has been amazing and I cannot wait to have you back again. If you publish another book or another program, please come share it with us. This has been wildly amazing, so I'm going to leave the links to everyone for the book and the programs and her website down below, and you can also follow her on socials Anywhere else you want people to connect with you.

JENNIFER BRICK: 49:27

Where do you think so? The place that I hang out pretty much daily is TikTok. There's like I post a video pretty much every single day there, but if anyone really wants to dive into dynamics, workplace trends and start deconstructing to reconstruct, my YouTube channel is the place to be.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 49:44

Yeah, you put a lot of work into that channel. That is something to celebrate. I can see your little award in the back there. That is awesome.

MARIA @THEFEMMECAST: 49:53

Okay, jennifer, thank you so much for being here Everyone. If you have any questions or any follow-ups or anything, please leave it in the comments down below or feel free to email me at mariaatthefemcoachcom and I'll try and I'll try, and I'll try and pick Jen's ear for you and get back to you with some answers within the next few days at least. Anyway, okay, thank you so much everyone and until next time. Massive love.